I dream of living in ... a World Without Dictators! I'm a Libertarian Paternalist in Slovakia - Freedom with Responsibility - 10% of income into your own Pension; Tax Loans for education, health, housing; now supporting Employment Maximizing Companies!

Pinochet a murderer & a Lebanon note

Powerful, interesting story about Chile on Ventolera:  Her husband would randomly break out into song, singing the greatest hits of all these artists. When we finally mentioned Victor Jara, he started singing "El Cigarrito" and a distressed look came over Eliana's face as she mentioned something in Spanish. "And the worst part is, I know his killer. I know the man who murdered Victor Jara."

Marc Cooper has a Chilean wife, and is also angry at Pinochet.  I'm much less so, despite my anger at injustice and at Pinochet's injustice. I understand around 4 000 Chileans were murdered by Pinochet's direct, or indirect, orders; this is a large number.

On the other hand, it was his "Chicago Boys" reforms that has made Chile the best economy of Latin America; and in the calculus of death, both Columbia and Nicaragua suffered far more deaths in their own twisting "modernization & globalization" paths.

Few would say having a talented person you know murdered is worse than having a 100 people murdered who you don't know. Still; I compare complaints about Pinochet with complaints about N. Vietnamese "Paris Peace Accords" violators and murderers of some 600 000 S. Vietnamese (most US allies they could find...). In comparison, Pinochet was far far less bad than the N. Viet commies -- yet many complain far more about him, than about the commies.

Pinochet's murders are horrible, and unjustified. What is justice? Why for him, but not for Castro, or others?

MintBloodFlowers answers!  just a part is here: Why is there a need to compare what Pinochet did with what the North Vietnamese did? What about a distinction between right and wrong instead of a distinction between right-wing politics and left-wing politics? It's pretty sickening how some people are willing to condemn dictatorship and torture in some cases while supporting them when it favors their cause.

"What about a distinction between right and wrong" --
Pinochet was wrong to kill people, and order people killed, in the way he did.
Pinochet was a dictator, and didn't allow as much human rights as I think he should.

Pinochet left gov't; as did the general the US supported in S. Korea.

Why compare the real Pinochet to other real dictators? Because I am enraged at what I call Unreal Perfection as the unspoken comparison to what is real. "right and wrong" is essentially a perfectionist critique.

Pinochet did bad stuff; criminal stuff. Also good economic policies. The Left hates, has hated, and continues to hate Pinochet; yet not so much criticism for Castro (still there) nor for the Viet generals (still a commie dictatorship).

Why? One of the reasons was that so many relatives escaped Chile -- rather than entire family clans being murdered (as Jews in Germany, or Vietnamese who were US allies).


You're probably right that I wouldn't comment so much if it was a Castro story. It's the Left that I want to be more fair in comparing real results to real results.

Like, if Israel accepts some ceasefire in Lebanon, that means almost certain death in the next few years for some Israelis who will become the targets of more Hezbollah rockets. I truly am interested in how to minimize Lebanonese deaths WITH gaining peaceful security for Israel.

Posted by: TomGrey at 07/19/06 16:20 | link | comments (6)
politics, israel palestine

Comments:

#1  19 July 2006 - 17:13

 

Minty,

What you must, MUST understand about Tom Grey (and the Right, generally) is the Principle of He Who Is Worse.

This Principle exists to demonstrate the perfidy of all lefties, always and forever. Allow me to illustrate:

SCENARIO 1

Leftie: Bush has done bad things.
Rightie: Hitler was worse!!!1! How can you criticize Bush when Hitler was worse!!!1! What, do you love Hitler????2? Why do all lefties, always and forever, love Adolf Hitler????@?

SCENARIO 2

Leftie: Genocidal dictator X was bad.

Rightie: Hitler was worse!!!1! How can you criticize Genocidal Dictator X (who people I like just happened to support...) when Hitler was worse!!!1! What, do you love Hitler????2? Why do all lefties, always and forever, love Adolf Hitler????@?

In other words, Tom Grey is an insufferable asshole who pretends to care about actual ideals, but when reality conflicts with his insane ramblings, he pulls out the "BUT HITLER WAS WORSE" card.

If Tom actually cared about injustice, he could bring himself to say "Pinochet was bad," and leave it at that. But he can't! He has to say "Pinochet was bad, BUT the Vietnamese were worse." Or, "Pinochet was bad, BUT he made some Chileans very wealthy while torturing, murdering, and impoverishing the rest." There's always that "but" involved, because he can't bring himself to unequivicably condemn evil.

Can you, Tom? Can you just bring yourself to say "Pinochet was bad" and leave it at that? Or do you always need to passively-aggressively defend this tyrant? I think the answer is clear: your inability to condemn evil without caveat indicates that you, in fact, have a slight crush on Pinochet and get a little wood whenever you think about him.

Anonymous

#2  19 July 2006 - 22:21

 

Seelly leeetle anon troll jumps up and down about Hitler, but I don't think I write so much on Hitler.

I DO, indeed, write about the N. Viet commie murderers -- those whose victory and murders were supported by Leftists "against the war". The choice was war or genocide, and the anti-war folk supported genocide.

TomGrey

#3  20 July 2006 - 00:37

 

Tom, while it is true that you don't often write about Hitler, you are missing the point. If you replace "Hitler" with "North Vietnamese", you always play the card of 'the North Vietnamese being worse'. Just because the N. Vietnamese were leftists doesn't make them worse than right wing dictators such as Pinochet.

krazykounselor

#4  20 July 2006 - 01:27

 

Señor Unlogged,

I can always count on you to call Tom out on any BS he may have to offer. :D You are appreciated.

Krazy - I would even go so far as to say that yes, the effects of certain dictatorships may be worse than those of others. The number of people affected may be different, countries may be left in better or worse states upon the end of the dictatorship... but that does not mean that one dictatorship can be considered acceptable in comparison to another one. You don't compare one serial killer with another, do you? We don't go around saying "David Berkowitz was bad, but there's no way he was as bad as John Wayne Gacy." The point is, they were both horrible people. Nobody would tell the family of David Berkowitz's victims that it's OK because he wasn't as bad as other serial killers.

Tom - Another note for you on my blog. Gift!

MintBloodflower

#5  20 July 2006 - 03:17

 

Miss Mint, lovely young lady,

My pleasure!

Tom: perhaps you should work on the concept of "the metaphor." I think the word is of Greek origin, but it's often used by speakers of the English language and is actually essential to most speech.

Toodles!

Anonymous

#6  18 June 2009 - 01:39

 

mp3 watchToday themp5 player weatherwholesale pda mobile phones is good,pda mobile phones the glorioustv mobile phones weather,luxurious cell phones we in wholesale brand cell phonesthe afternoon brand cell phones do notdiscount cellphone have classMichelle Obama's Shoes this to beugg boots indeed very Men's Clothingcrisp,Wholesale handbags my great noon early runs on studies by oneself, is pondering over the university life is at heart how happy, this a twinkling's time I havewholesale clothing entered theWholesale jewelry main building,wholesale must saywholesale electronics that ourwholesale clothing ga builds wholesale handbagsthe independent-study ghdhall to beghd hair straighteners very actuallyghd straighteners many. Butwholesale furniture you wereFurniture Wholesale said thatCeramic tile did notMicro sd cards have theWholesale clothing book bag Wholesale Jewelryto occupy Wholesale fashion jewelryplace thatWholesale costume jewelry difficultlyReplica watches to look. watchesI am climb cheap watchesmountains and cross rivers,swiss replica watches crosses Cheap Watchesthe mountainRolex Watches to be colder,Swiss Watch arrives Gucci Watchesat a Replica Rolex Watcheshaven deepReplica Omega Watches place with great difficulty.I thisReplica Watches pushes the Rolex Watchesgate I to testfake rolex watches really suddenlyCartier Watches sees the light.wristwatches This classroomcasio watch has notReplica rolex watcheshad how cartier tank watchmany peoplereplica watches really. watchesSaid thatceramic watches was lateomega watches that isceramic replica watches I abandonsbreitling bentley the bookSwiss Watches bag toMan watchess look forrolex replica watches a seat quicklyfranck muller watches to take a seat,Replica Breitling my this was unimportant, almost becameswiss replica watches the disability.replica burberry watches As soon as Replica Omega Watchesturns head Wholesale jewelrylooked that the seat simply does not have the board.

Anonymous

Comments: